/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>483781
As far as economic theory is concerned, you are correct.

Politically there are people who want to improve conditions for prostitutes, that's not wrong, reducing suffering should not be poo-poo-ed. There is a lot of horrendous human trafficking in the prostitution industry, so if there's a chance to change legal definitions to make it like a waged job with labor-rights and so on. That should be supported, because the mafia parts tend to diminish in those circumstances. The human trafficking mafia moving in is usually the 3rd worst thing that can happen to a place (in peace-time).

I do not think that it is women's empowerment at all, the political line that sex-work is normal work, normalizes the expectation that women have to offer sex for money. For many women that's definitely worse than having to offer labor-power for money. So IMHO that part is not social progress.

>>483781
The whole thing of hating on lumpenproles is stupid now, and was always stupid. And no, sex workers aren't, generally, petit bourgeoisie… like you could say that about a pimp, but if you're selling sex, images, etc. directly that you yourself have to do, then you're a lumpenprole. Being a particularly well-paid lumpenprole (which is actually pretty rare in sex work ftr) is still being a lumpenprole if what you're getting paid for is sex work.

Lumpenproles are literally just proles who didn't have an "in" to the conventional labor market. Marx himself gets weirdly moralistic when talking about them, as though everything else was a product of material conditions except these folks who just needed to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Sex work isn't empowering, with the caveat that it at least often involves direct exchange between customer and worker (IE it can be less "alienated" than waged labor, but so is washing dishes at a commune for 'free')… and it is also usually "off grid," meaning the worker has more control over their revenue in general, even besides not having to deal with middlemen employers. So, in these senses there is a case for empowerment through sex work. However, it is also genuinely degrading for most, pay is irregular, most make fairly little, and as you get older it rapidly becomes more difficult to keep doing it, even psychologically. Even though plenty of folks enjoy it when they start, it is rarely the 'first choice' - if sex work is all you're doing, you most likely have been rejected from even being considered at any conventional job you applied to, and this is very common. If it's not the only thing you're doing, then you likely do other service work which simply doesn't cover basic expenses. It's not the thing some people try to glorify it as, the average sex worker is not wealthy.

Sex work is real work, but it also becomes more common as a result of society both devaluing other forms of labor and keeping unemployment artificially high. There is no reason to shame or punish sex workers, nor is it necessary to alter the system to disincentivize sex work specifically. All you have to do is reduce cost of living and unemployment, and you will reduce the amount of sex work in the long term. As it is, though, the US has become a society where being a whore actually can be more dignified than being a retail worker, and the problem isn't that our whores are too dignified, it's that our retail workers are treated & paid like absolute dogshit.

>>483781
It's amazing how quickly whoring your self out became "empowerment" when a well funded company like OnlyFans made digital pimping their business model.

>>483787
Lumpenproles are degenerate waste of humanity defined by nothing but violent individualism, criminality, herd thinking, antiintellectualism & absolute class traitorousness which they showed time after time whenever progressive classes were struggling against the bourgs by eagerly standing in either as mafioso tools like @ Paris Commune, Indonesia or Americas or simply as strikebreakers if they're 2 cucky 4 another aforementioned kind of a dirty work.
In other words, it's petbourgs with temporarily embarassed millionaire mentality who will risk their asses 4 this slavery system, thinking th@ through being ruthless irresponsible cucks who seize the opportunity to help the greater power they can better their own petbourg condition.
Go on, uyghur, try 2 recruit some death squadron members into your progressive soycialist movement. Let's see how th@ would turn out. Again.

Sex involves time and effort. I would argue that because both parties involved expend metabolic energy in the act, that both the client and the sex worker should get paid.

Furthermore, sex work are industries. You have commercial interests of brothel keepers and of self employed prostitutes.

You must also take into account that if you say sex workers are exploited, well, so are cooks, so why treat brothels any different from Burger King?

>>483812
To be fair, the prep and cleanup for sex for a woman is substantially more than a man.

>>483813
This is simply not true. Society looks down on non-geriatric males and sees them as nothning more than disposable stray dogs. Males also have to go thorugh prep and cleanup for sex. Do you think there aren't guys who like getting their ass eaten? Or to have their feet licked. Male clients also want to give off a good impression. Males who cleaned up are often stigmatized as homosexual and such. Another edxample of non-septuagenarian males being treated like circus clowns.

>>483814
Do men have to worry about getting pregnant?

>>483787

>>483814
this is all true.
Male youth are pathologised as potential warrior-jesters that need "training".
God forbid that young men see themselves as anything else outside of being a war machine.

>>483787
Stop defending lumpen proles.
Theyre not all "le misunderstood loners".
Most lumpenproles are not even victims of ghetto upbringing.

Bit the rest of your post is right.
Sex work being glorified as the common womans work is due to retail work being thankless and u derappreciated.
But this is due to people forgoing trades and family farms.

>>483809
Leftists have a toxic affinity for lumpen proles.
Yet, they look down on college students whom are law abiding citizens and work dead end jobs and are eager to give what little they have to leftist cause.



>>483816
they have to wrry about rape allegations or false paternity

>>483800
Marxism wants to destroy the nuclear family. Turning women into literal whores is an effective way of doing that.

>>483831
>Marxism wants to destroy the nuclear family.
You haven't demonstrated that.

>>483831
Capitalism already did that.

>>483832
>You haven't demonstrated that.
Finding a marxist who has actually read marx is like finding a christian who has actually read the bible.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/want-to-dismantle-capitalism-abolish-the-family/
https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/History/Faculty/Weikart/Marx-Engels-and-the-Abolition-of-the-Family.pdf

>>483809
100% spook. Zero substance.

>>483817
>Stop defending lumpen proles.
I am a lumpenprole, faggot. What is it with some of you people and thinking everyone you're talking to is a spectator?
>Theyre not all "le misunderstood loners".
>Most lumpenproles are not even victims of ghetto upbringing.
I never said any of this, and it's cartoonish that this is where your thoughts immediately go, like you need some sort of comic book villain backstory to accept that some folks don't get 'normal' work.

>Leftists have a toxic affinity for lumpen proles.
>Yet, they look down on college students whom are law abiding citizens and work dead end jobs and are eager to give what little they have to leftist cause.

I'm fine with both of those groups actually lol.

>>483836
>100% spook. Zero substance.

Provide proof.

>I am a lumpenprole, faggot. What is it with some of you people and thinking everyone you're talking to is a spectator?

Because most people are spectators.

>I never said any of this, and it's cartoonish that this is where your thoughts immediately go, like you need some sort of comic book villain backstory to accept that some folks don't get 'normal' work.

Are you born disabled or in a socioeconomic bind that makes you unable to pursue "normal work"?

>I'm fine with both of those groups actually lol.

Youre a rarity. Most people are too moony for former delinquents.

>>483832
Because the nuclear family is kinda bourg. Most families were extended and had communities that were like extra cousins.

Also, irony is, alot of whores come from nuclear families.

try posting something like this on the 'gre and watch the immediate seethe followed by getting banned 5 minutes later lmao
why is vigorously defending lumpen whore pieces of shit a prerequisite of commumism for simps?

Behead whores

>>484043
Go away

>>483781
>>484043
Are incels lumpen? Do incels create anything of value with their labor?

the most important work of course is being a jobless person who goes on imageboards and calls everyone lumpen

>>484069
To the proletariat, petite-bourgeoisie are so much f7cking worse than the lumpen. Any bourgeois will disagree with this assessment. They actively exploit the proletariat for more than they are worth themselves, producing no value at all. A lumpenprole cooking meth in a bathtub actually produces more and consumes less value than any petite-bourgeois non-producing "worker": teacher, career musician, a cop, etc. These petite-bourgeois demons mask their exploitation so well many "leftists" look at these parasites with respect, more respect than any lumpen. The lumpen are mere downtrodden proles, who do nothing "wrong"——but exist——meanwhile the petite-bourgeois are daywalking vampires, by nature of existing, as is any bourgeois. They
and their apologists always cry "but they work for a wage, they're exploited too!," deftly ignoring the fact that these class' function, their existence, is predicated upon exploiting the proletariat that they are not. The King's men, the clergy : the police, the economics professer, etc. Open your fucking eyes. Any value they are "exploited of" was already exploited from the proletariat. CPUSA Anon bitching about capitalism as he owns a fourtune in gamestock stock, his only function placing existing value on the shelves, producing no value. The petite-bourgeois are true parasites in relation to any lumpen

>>484080
>lumpens are better than petty booj
trvke and jvggalo pilled

sex work is objectively real though
like, you are just being a slave by pretending that "work" in itself is somehow noble or validating of existence. but this is the brain cancer so many commie copers possess lole.
and your rejection of ljberal moralism is in-fact just a reverse moralism by making the proletariat exclusive.

>>484057
Also relevant video

>>484097
Sex work is real but it's not actual work. Excluding sex work has nothing to do with "liberal moralism".

If prostitutes actually produced—rather than destroyed—surplus-value, then they wouldn't be class enemy. The prostitutes have no class consciousness: their ideal circumstances they would be bourgeois, like they are now in many places. The prostitute is a socioeconomical parasite under any conditions

>>484103
>its real but its not real
youre not making sense bro
define "actual work"

>>484097
>like, you are just being a slave by pretending that "work" in itself is somehow noble or validating of existence.
Nobody said anything about 'noble', but all economic value is generated by human labor. As socialists our interests are the interests of the working class.
>>484109
Sorry if I confused you, it's not actual work. They are not proles.

https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/socialists-can-never-support-prostitution/

>>484117
define "value"
my marxist definition of value is money. the value-form (money) represents Labour in the reproduction of the capital relation by the cycle of production and consumption.
so whatever is paid for becomes valuable, which is tautological of course, yet most miss this by objectifying value outside of its basic concept.
>socialists can never support prostitution
i dont. at all.
im just saying that your theoretical objections to it are still incorrect.

>>484187
i saw some lib the other day say that we need to bring back coal mines to give the working class an identity. every labour fetishist pencil-pusher needs to go to gulag to know how it feels.

>>484183
OK, you're a libtard.
>my marxist definition of value is money.
>so whatever is paid for becomes valuable
Subjective theory of value has nothing to do with Marxism, it's quite the opposite.
>theoretical objections to it are still incorrect.
What theoretical objections?They are exploited but not the same way a worker is exploited. They are not proles, they are lumpen this is reality.

>>484187
The bourgeois conception of value you illustrate was debunked centuries ago. Read Marx.
>>484057
>real work
Proletarian labor: amplifying the forces of production, contributing value to society (from the view of society as a whole—from the view of proletariat) not merely aiding the extraction of surplus-value from the proletariat, destroying it with parasitic bourgeois consumption.
>not real work
producing cost to the proletariat, creating no value for society.
Performing a perfunctory—bourgeois—function which meets no criteria of real work. Aids the exploitation of the proletariat—defining characteristic being that it creates no value.
<Police stealing existing value by force, directly enforcing capitalism
<Therapists gaslighting and poisoning the real working-classes into slaving more comfortably.
<Media "workers" creating bourgeois propaganda, their function, nay, their existence—an utter cost to the proletariat.
<Petite-bourgeois ER doctors commanding other workers to stabilize the broken slave, to return them to an exploitable state.
<Teacher grooming children into becoming the most exploitable wage slaves. By design they only teach enough to make us useful.


Only under Communism can these exploiting and parasitic classes be called producers. If they work for capitalists, they amplify exploitation, amplifying costs to the proletariat. Only under Communism can they truly be said to augment the value received by society, as surplus-value goes to the proletariat.


Fresh example from this very day of petite-bourgeois pigs being a cost to the masses: My instructor doubled down on the idea of 1 lbs. being equal to 2.2 KG. Death to america bury middle class american pigs or make them learn the metric system before teaching it

Bourgeois PMC theories of value are thr prevailing theories of value on ogre for a reason

>>484207
<We should bring back an obsolete form of power generation based on feels and vibes because the hellish conditions would teach those dirty white collar workers a lesson.
Kill yourself.

>>484199
you've clearly never read marx if you cant track from what im saying. and if money (the value-form) is not the form of value, then what is?
marx's concept of socially-necessary labour-time (SNLT) is based in how wages stabilise at subsistence levels for unskilled labour, to reproduce the commodity of labour-power (this today can be called "minimum wage"). this is also why he thought that managers of labour and other fields of skilled labour received higher wages; because these positions were more valuable to the relations of production.
so to marx, the higher the value of a product, the more its worth, which again, is tautological, because its obvious to anyone with an economic consciousness.
>subjective value
use-value as the content of value is subjective to marx, as he says in the first chapter of das kapital. we pay to consume the body of a commodity for our own personal reasons. thus, value becomes self-determined by the market, which is why in a degenerate society like the west, prostitution becomes more valuable than it should.
this is also a postmarxist analysis admittedly, but i am also just correcting what is logically omitted or historically dislocated in marx.
>prostitutes are not workers
it is literally the "oldest job in the world" lol. and you still havent defined "real work". this again is because you've never read marx, but i will enlighten you. the term youre grasping for is "wage-worker", because it is only in the wage contract that surplus-labour is able to be exploited for the capitalist. this is because wage-labour bases production on time, and converts this time into the 'space' of commodities.
he also describes this elementarily in das kapital, where labour-power is rented to the capitalist (rather than bought outright like a slave). it is this mode of *potentiality* which gives labour-power its surplus in *actuality*. this is all dialectical stuff coming out of hegel's relation between Idenity and Difference (or being-in-itself and being-for-another, which is also extrapolated to use-values and exchange-values, which marx describes later, and most poignantly in capital vol. 2 imo).
so prostitutes arent wage-workers, but that doesnt make them non-valuable. value is money. they shouldnt be valuable though, and that is my theoretical extension.
>>484207
manual labour jobs should be automated. the athenians understood well that manual labour is the work of slaves, not free men. and if you need to destroy your body to find an identity then you are a spirirual slave and should be chained up. i will refer you to the wage slave who lkves his oppression: >>484097

>>484057
so Marx was a retard?

>>484223
>it is only in the wage contract that surplus-labour is able to be exploited for the capitalist
>prostitutes arent wage-workers
Why do most workers freely choose to be "exploited" when all they have to do is become self-employed to beat the capitalist oppression? Clearly you're missing something.

>>483781
Based and trvthpilled
onthewomanquestion.com/2021/02/15/sex-work-is-not-work-a-marxist-feminist-analysis-of-prostitution

>>483781

whatevet it is, it is extortive.

White prostitutes are charging OVER $1200 ON AVERAGE online where I live

>>484237
It's called supply and demand anon

>>484238
The "supply" is oversaturated